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Freaky Euhelopus by palaeozoologist Freaky Euhelopus by palaeozoologist
So this is Euhelopus with the huge scapula and long forelimb added in (which I omitted previously in my multi-view skeletal). Suffice to say, it looks FREAKY.

This scapula and forelimb are part of 'exemplar c' and were referred to 'exemplar a' by C.C. Young in 1935. I have some qualms about the referral, but it does explain some things, like the retro-verted pelvis and the really long anterior dorsal rib.

If this reconstruction is right, than Euhelopus was the sauropod version of an orangutan. Weird.

Refs--

Young, C. C. 1935. Dinosaurian remains from Mengyin, Shantung. Bulletin of the Geological Society of China 15: 519533.
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:iconalgoroth:
Algoroth Featured By Owner Jul 5, 2011  Professional General Artist
I'd like to do a flesh restoration from your skeletal. May I have your permission?

I am doing a re-interpretation of Paleo King's Argentinosaurus muscle restoration. First two stages are in now, if you want to see them. Just browse my gallery. I'd be interested in seeing if you think they're any good thus far. Links back to his original are provided.

Done digitally.
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:iconpalaeozoologist:
palaeozoologist Featured By Owner Jul 5, 2011  Hobbyist General Artist
Yes, you can do a flesh restoration off of this. Be warned however, that I am planning a revised version in the future that is hopefully a bit more accurate.

Your Argentinosaurus re-interpretation is good as far as I can tell. I have not yet looked at Argentinosaurus in the necessary detail yet in order to tell whether Nima's original was accurate or not so I can't provide any anatomy-specific comments but it looks good so far.
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:iconalgoroth:
Algoroth Featured By Owner Aug 10, 2011  Professional General Artist
I expect to finish it soon, and, with luck and work, your freaky Euhelopus as well. I might draw clouds around his head. Yes, it is possible. Yes, I'll DO it! Cloudy Euhelpous coming SOON!
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:iconpalaeozoologist:
palaeozoologist Featured By Owner Aug 10, 2011  Hobbyist General Artist
Sounds good!
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:iconalgoroth:
Algoroth Featured By Owner Aug 10, 2011  Professional General Artist
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! :evillaugh: :rofl:
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:iconalgoroth:
Algoroth Featured By Owner Jun 27, 2011  Professional General Artist
THAt is FREAKY!!!!! Wonder if he gets dizzy that high in the sky? :keiross: :omfg: ::jawdrop:
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:iconpalaeozoologist:
palaeozoologist Featured By Owner Jul 1, 2011  Hobbyist General Artist
Well, if he lifted his head too quickly, I'd imagine he'd get a little light-headed, at least for a little while.
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:iconpaleo-king:
Paleo-King Featured By Owner May 17, 2011  Professional Traditional Artist
Nice example of real ONP in a macronarian! Not that I would restore the neck this way, but it does put a big dent in some flawed published notions of ONP in tall-shouldered macronarians. Not sure about how the chest came out, but when I make mine I'll be sure to double check the dimensions. Fortunately, unlike Giraffatitan, the neural arches are pretty complete and ONP can be pretty reliably illustrated.

What I really like about this skeletal is that it shows how steep the dorsal column had to be to accommodate the colossal shoulder blade in the "modern" posture (which is more vertical than how Greg Paul drew the shoulder blade, and hence the back is also steeper than the GSP version - two things I always had a hunch were true in the real animal, though maybe neither one to the extent shown here).

Euhelopus was indeed weird, but it's one of my favorite sauropods. And it's downright cute, sort of like a mini-version of Giraffatitan with a more rounded head. Once sauropods got past the 60-foot mark, they were no longer so cuddly LOL :XD:
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:iconpalaeozoologist:
palaeozoologist Featured By Owner May 18, 2011  Hobbyist General Artist
Well, I've already double- and triple-checked the dimensions, and I'm pretty sure its as accurate as reasonably possible. It had big shoulders, however the orientation is conjectural.

The fact is, the shoulder blade couldn't be as horizontal as GSP draws it, otherwise the shoulder blade would cross the first 9 dorsal ribs and generally scapulas don't go past the fifth. Somethings off about GSP's Euhelopus, but I haven't quite put my finger on it...
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:iconpaleo-king:
Paleo-King Featured By Owner May 18, 2011  Professional Traditional Artist
Yeah, the GSP version looks nice but the shoulder blade crosses way too many ribs, I have a feeling that this would actually havelimited shoulder movement to an unrealistic degree. Just looking at the Wiman paper and its illustrations, I get the impression that the dorsal column's slope was very steep, even steeper than in brachiosaurs. Maybe even steeper than you've shown it. The problem is, there's also an upcurve to it, which looks to me like an artifact of a death pose (some of the centra appear to be slipping out of their articulations, condyles ventrally too much exposed.) what's your take on that?
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:iconpalaeozoologist:
palaeozoologist Featured By Owner May 18, 2011  Hobbyist General Artist
Well there is a couple of upcurves going on in the anterior dorsals/posterior cervicals. I removed the dorsiflexion in the posterior cervicals, but the upcurve in the anterior dorsals is still there even when I re-articulate them in GIMP. A similar upcurve appears in Malawisaurus and Diplodocus, actually, so I think part of it is real. I don't think the centra are slipping out of their articulations. Usually a part of the condyle (the posterior) part would be partially visible. In life, this would be covered with articular cartilage. I think the diagrams shown by Wiman appear reasonable amount of condyle shown, similar to what it would look like in life.
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:iconalgoroth:
Algoroth Featured By Owner Aug 10, 2011  Professional General Artist
Got a stupid question for you. AHEM!!!!!! Well, does muscle tissue ever attach to cartilage? I don't think it does, but I don't really know...
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:iconpalaeozoologist:
palaeozoologist Featured By Owner Aug 10, 2011  Hobbyist General Artist
It's actually not a stupid question, actually a very good question and the answer is: yes, muscle tissue does attach to cartilage. One example is the laryngeal muscles that attach to the thyroid cartilage in humans.
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:iconalgoroth:
Algoroth Featured By Owner Aug 10, 2011  Professional General Artist
The reason I was asking is this: can limb muscles attach to the knee cartilage, for example, thus enlarging the attachment zones for muscles? This would have a large bearing on what the muscles could look like. I'm doubting it.

There is some controversy (says Algoroth with a low chuckle) over how much (lower and upper limits) to muscle a sauropod's upper limbs, both arms and legs. I've had the hypothesis shown to me that, since some sauropods had small nerve openings through the bones somewhere or other, they were rather slow and clumsy, so they would not need much muscle, scarcely more than a skin of muscle sheath, and that would do the job.

My kindest thoughts on the theory would get me kicked off of DA if I told the truth without palliative words, so I'll keep quiet for now. When looking at some views of a Mamenchisaurus skeleton, the limbs look very thin for such a monstrously large beast. I can see why some viewers might think sauropods need no big muscles, but bones can lie, just as necks can. Look at a croc skeleton, then look at the living animal. No way I'd think it has the muscles it has from just the bones. The fact that some sauropod species were built very robustly makes the claim they did not need muscle into a lie. Apatosaurus comes to mind, as well as Uberabatitan and Argyrosaurus. Ever see those famous femurs???? Good gravy, they were big!

And when I think of well muscled for a sauropod, I'm think African elephant and the Asian variety too. Not fat, balloon limbs that would chafe the poor things to death. Maybe thinner, but at least, they should be thicker than the bare bones. Some of Greg Paul's restorations have that fault. Species? Centrosaurus. Mamenchisaurus. Triceratops. Corythosaurus. Apatosaurus. And there are others, but those will do for now.
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:iconpalaeozoologist:
palaeozoologist Featured By Owner Aug 10, 2011  Hobbyist General Artist
I'm not sure about limb muscles attaching to knee cartilage directly, but I will say that the tendons attach to bone and cartilage and tendons support the muscles so I will tentatively say that cartilage (in some instances) could increase muscle attachment zones, but I can't think of anything to suggest that it would be a significant increase.

As for sauropod limb muscle size, remember that generally in the skeletals you see, the animal is portrayed in lateral (that is, side) view. Sauropod limb bones were thin laterally, but very wide transversely (that is side to side). Therefore, one should expect that if sauropods were as large muscled as you advocate, than this "largeness" could only be accurately seen from a front or back view of the limbs, and would not be very visible in lateral/side view. So comparing to crocs and elephants in this manner is an attractive idea, they have very differently constructed limbs and so I think the comparison is a false one.
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(1 Reply)
:iconskull-island-master:
Skull-Island-Master Featured By Owner May 14, 2011
It is weird, indeed. butn also cool, i love animals that are weird
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:iconpalaeozoologist:
palaeozoologist Featured By Owner May 17, 2011  Hobbyist General Artist
yeah, I agree :) Thanks for the comment!
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:iconneustrasbourg:
NeuStrasbourg Featured By Owner May 11, 2011
a sauropod orangutan sounds as unlikely as it sounds awesome.
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:iconalgoroth:
Algoroth Featured By Owner Jul 5, 2011  Professional General Artist
I might draw a sauropod orangutan, just for the hell of it. That would be a fantasy job, fer sher.
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:iconpalaeozoologist:
palaeozoologist Featured By Owner May 13, 2011  Hobbyist General Artist
Well, they didn't live in trees ;) ...I'm just talking about the disproportionately large arms.
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:iconpilsator:
pilsator Featured By Owner May 10, 2011  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Looking awesome. Just imagining it with its neck raised above ONP...
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:iconpalaeozoologist:
palaeozoologist Featured By Owner May 10, 2011  Hobbyist General Artist
Thanks! I will actually be doing a version with the neck raised above ONP in the near future, no imagination required :D
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:iconcryptidsaurian:
cryptidsaurian Featured By Owner May 9, 2011  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
maybe it's chest was puffed out to make itself look bigger than it truly was. :?
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:iconpalaeozoologist:
palaeozoologist Featured By Owner May 9, 2011  Hobbyist General Artist
It definitely had some large chest muscles. It'd be interesting to know what it was doing with them.
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:iconemperordinobot:
EmperorDinobot Featured By Owner May 8, 2011
For some reason, it looks really REALLY stiff. More stiff than GP's skeletals. But this isn't the first Euhelopus reconstruction that makes it look like it can't move...Shame we don't know any tail material for it. It would be difficult to get it from another animal, since Euhelopus is sooo unique.
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:iconpalaeozoologist:
palaeozoologist Featured By Owner May 9, 2011  Hobbyist General Artist
It looks stiff because it is not moving or in a life posture--the limbs aren't in motion and the neck is in osteological neutral pose (OPN). I will do a more active skeletal pose in the future.

Euhelopus is actually very similar to Daxiatitan, at least in the elements we can compare. Daxiatitan is known from tail vertebrae, too, although only two. I thought about reconstructing the tail vertebrae after Daxiatitan, but decided not to in this case (at least for the time being, I might do it in the future for the more "active" version).
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:iconemperordinobot:
EmperorDinobot Featured By Owner May 9, 2011
Never heard of Daxiatitan. When was it published?
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:iconpalaeozoologist:
palaeozoologist Featured By Owner May 10, 2011  Hobbyist General Artist
I believe it was published in 2008. It was about 3 times larger, and about 27 times heavier than Euhelopus. So about 31 meters long and about 50-55 tonnes.
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:iconemperordinobot:
EmperorDinobot Featured By Owner May 10, 2011
Holy crap. That's gigantic.
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:iconpalaeozoologist:
palaeozoologist Featured By Owner May 13, 2011  Hobbyist General Artist
Yeah, it is.
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:iconmechatherium:
Mechatherium Featured By Owner May 7, 2011  Student Digital Artist
Perhaps it was convergent on Brachiosaurus/Giraffatitan
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:iconpalaeozoologist:
palaeozoologist Featured By Owner May 9, 2011  Hobbyist General Artist
There are indeed some general similarities between Euhelopus and Brachiosaurus/Giraffatitan. The interesting thing is how Euhelopus achieved those similarities. The neck vertebrae aren't as elongated as in Giraffatitan, instead, it has about 17 neck vertebrae instead of 13 in Giraffatitan. Also, it has a really big shoulder blade instead of having a longer humerus than femur.
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